So, last night, @zbeg was firing off corner case after corner case about how no card is strictly better than another. This carried on to this morning, as people caught up to the conversation. Many people had varying points, but ultimately, the confusion arises from two main things.
1) People are not defining "Strictly Better/Worse" correctly. (@modogodot provided a definition he claims WotC R&D uses, and later I'll get into why I disagree. Even if THEY use it, doesn't mean they are correct in what it actually means. EDIT: Since then @mtgaaron did infact use a similar definition to @modogodot, which @modogodot confirmed he agrees with)
2)Magic Players love hyperbole. This doesn't have much to do with this conversation, but is typically how these sorts of things come up. One person uses the phrase in hyperbole, gets shot down, and then mass hysteria ensues.
Onward, Ho!
Game theory, from an academic standpoint, is one of my strengths. This debate, really is, an academic one. It's a debate over how to define the term, not how it impacts game development/design, or actual game play or strategy. Many people are saying, but it's only useful if we define it like this...! We don't define academic terms for their usefulness. "Strictly Better" was not defined for the purposes of MTG, and if it just so happens that you don't find any value in using that term, as its defined, then we probably just shouldn't. If @modogodot (and others) choose to create a different definition, to describe only Magic The Gathering, that's their perogative, but it's never going to be the globally accepted definition of what the term means, and will always continue to create confusion when used.
I (and others including @marshallLRcast) suggested sticking to the term "better". Which is much safer, and easier to debate with out academic minutia. But, here we are, and since I'm particular about my academics, I'm going to set the record straight.
Strictly Better, is a common replacement, for "Strictly Dominant Strategy".
In game theory, the general premise of study is that both players select a strategy before the game begins, then the game happens, and both players execute said strategy, and then there is a result, where each player receives a payoff/outcome from the result of the game. A common example you may already be familiar with is The Prisoner's Dilemma. While that example is not a zero-sum game, like MTG, a much simpler example is Rock-Paper-Scissors is indeed a zero-sum game. Before the game begins, each player mentally selects what they will choose, and after 1-2-3-Shoot, they display their strategy using hand symbols. In this case there is only 3 outcomes: Win(+1), Lose(-1), and Draw(0). There is no Strictly Dominant Strategy in this game, as there is no single choice (or mixture of choices) that is always better than any other. (There is an optimal mixed strategy, that provides the best EXPECTED outcome, but is not strictly best, i'd be happy to write more about mixed strategies if people are interested.)
I digress. Here, we're trying to define "strictly better" as it applies to one MtG card, over another. What the term means in this context is: Card A is better than Card B to be included in a deck, because to combat every given STRATEGY (or card choice etc) the opponent may select, Card A provides an equal or better outcome, never worse.
My example will be: Stoic Rebuttal is strictly better than Cancel.
How much better? Not much really, in most decks not at all, but that's now what we're getting at here.
Common (incorrect) counter-arguments:
Mindslaver-
"My opponent has Mindslaver, when they activate it against me, the cheaper counter may give them the opportunity to counter my own spell when they otherwise wouldn't have."
This is a description of a game state, not a strategy. Stoic Rebuttal is still strictly better at beating the strategy your opponent is playing. If your deck can indeed take advantage of the discounted cost, you're better off at preventing the Mindslaver from resolving, which is far more relevant to how that card will impact the match, as compared to what will happen when the opponent needs to cast it out of your hand. Ultimately, once they've activated Mindslaver on you, they've won the game. So what you have in your hand, and what they do with it, isn't really relevant to what's the best strategy. Even if you did know that all of your opponents on a given day were running Mindslaver, would you choose cancel over stoic? Absolutely not. Maybe if in your deck its literally impossible to Metalcraft, then you would be indifferent between the two cards, but you certainly aren't saying that Cancel is better.
Meddling Mage-
"My opponent cast a meddling mage, naming Stoic Rebuttal! I bet you wish you had a cancel now!?" No, I wish i had a lightning bolt to kill the damned Meddling Mage. That's what makes Meddling Mage good, once they know what IS in the opponents deck, they have the dynamic decision to prevent you from playing it. Unfortunately, NEITHER Cancel, nor Stoic Rebuttal can be defended from that. Maybe you trick your opponent once, by running an inferior card, but it certainly isn't increasing your overall outcome (this is covered in the "equilibrium" part of the link i provided above. In fact they're probably just playing poorly, if they chose to name a card with Meddling Mage, that isn't even in your deck.
Defining Payoffs/Outcomes-
Outcomes, in the case of MTG are your win% against a given strategy over time. Because MtG is a game that contains variance, we must rely on the law of large numbers to assign payoffs to any given card choice. Cancel would never provide a higher win% against any given strategy than Stoic Rebuttal would, but Stoic Rebuttal COULD provide a higher win% against many strategies, if the deck was built to take advantage of its inherent "betterness".
Why we shouldn't be in a vacuum:
Sometime between when I began this post, and now, @mtgaaron Head of MTG R&D chimed in, and explained that he uses "Strictly Better" to compare two cards in a vacuum, and if Card A is better in every way than Card B then it is Strictly so. It's good to know that my Stoic Rebuttal example still fits his definition, but I don't agree with his definition.
Magic is not a vacuum, and neither is the metagame for any given format. This is really the issue here, we don't want to be isolating individual cards as reasons why one card could be better than another, but rather, strategies that an opponent may select before the game begins.
For example, Counterbalance, is of course a card, while it also is the namesake card of an entire Legacy archetype. While, the existance of the card creates the existence of the archetype, its a fine line that says its the archetype that makes it relevant to the discussion. The Counterbalance player (or rather, deck designer) has taken a look at the metagame and said, "I've noticed that in Legacy, most decks run cards that have low casting costs, and run from 0 to about 5. There's a much higher density of those cards in the 1-3 range. I'm selecting a strategy that gives me a strong ability to consistently counter every spell they cast, using other abilities that can manipulate the top card of my library." Here, my example of Stoic Rebuttal vs Cancel still stands, because they both have the same CMC of 3, even though Stoic Rebuttal may actually cost less. There are CERTAINLY times when selecting one card choice over another has been impacted by the existence of this deck, infact I read an article about it this week, and i'll find it and update it here. The fact that making such a card choice is actually better to defeat one strategy, is no trivial fact, it is what we are precisely defining.
Another such example is Chalice of the Void, in mono-brown vintage archetypes. This is the reason why blue players keep both Hurkyl's recall and Rebuild in their 75. While the difference in CMC is not the only reason why one card is not strictly better than another, it is the reason its selected in this case.It is simply another illustration why 2 cards with the same/similar functional ability at different CMC's cannot be considered strictly better in formats where archetypes that can limit the types of CMC's their opponents can play, are available to be chosen.
Many are saying, that without the vacuum, nothing valuable can said.
That may, or may not be true, and I tend to disagree. Each person is going to find different types of information valuable. But lots of valuable things can be said about comparing cards both inside and outside of the vacuum. Basically, if you don't like my definition (see: textbook), then we should simply be using a different term. Just because the definition some have chosen may be more "valuable" to you, doesn't make it correct. I'm going to once more go back to my good ol' ... "Just say better, and then describe quantitatively and qualitatively, how it is better. Using the term strictly better, is rarely correct, and when it is, it probably isn't even describing what you'd like it to."
Hopefully the comments section below will allow the debate to continue in a format that doesn't stop us at 140 characters (after we @ all the interested parties).
Looking forward to the flames!
While I share @zbeg's horror at useless and dangerous (from a thinking perspective) comments like "SoFaF is strictly better than SoBaM" or "Mirran Crusader is strictly better than Kitchen Finks", I do prefer meaningful definitions that can actually be used in the real world. So, I agree with what you've laid out to a large extent.
ReplyDeleteFor myself, I use the term to refer to when a card has been realistically obsoleted in a given context. If we were building a Legacy Zoo deck and you proposed Grizzly Bears, I would be happy saying, no, Tarmogoyf is strictly better. If a new set comes out and Neo-Tarmogoyf appears for G, I would still be happy saying it is a strictly better card than Tarmogoyf. I believe the context is implied to be the format you're building for, or the considering the card in. Again, I think this is allowed by drawing the definition from Game Theory.
During game play, the context changes considerably, and strictly better comes up much less frequently, because it is hard to say whether it was strictly better to (say) play S.D. Top on turn 1 or keep Brainstorm back in case they have Thoughtseize, or numerous complicated decisions like that. Sometimes, we can say it: it would have been strictly better to not use my Force of Will to counter that spell, when Counterbalance could have gotten it (and I knew it would). But if I have ensnaring bridge in play, then perhaps it would have been strictly better to counter the spell, and not get attacked that turn.
So, in summary, I am happy to allow context to guide what strictly better means, while drawing on its Game Theoretic background, but am not happy at all to hear suggested improvements to a deck couched as "strictly better".
I also think the WotC definition is a good fallback position for when we won't want to invoke Game Theory but do want to combat loose usage. A card is strictly better than another when the card is the same with a lower mana cost or the same cost with better text.
Enough testing? :)
That was actually pretty difficult to post. The first time it ate the comment and gave me an error message. Then I went back and it had me logged in as my Google account. Then posting the comment showed me a Captcha with a preview, then it posted.
ReplyDeleteMichael, great feedback. Not sure what's up with the posting of comments issues, many are experiencing it. I don't question the need to have relevant terms, but why can't we just have a DIFFERENT term that doesn't overlap with a very similar term that has a different (while literal) meaning.
ReplyDeleteI also don't see the benefit in using the word "strictly" in your Grizzly Bear vs Tarmogoyf example. What's the harm in just saying, Tarmogoyf is better? Isn't that really what you're trying to say? Using "strictly" is almost asking someone to argue you on it.
ReplyDeleteAh... I see. Back to your definition: "Card A is better than Card B to be included in a deck, because to combat every given STRATEGY (or card choice etc) the opponent may select, Card A provides an equal or better outcome, never worse." So you would say, no, people play Tormod's Crypt effects, you can't say Tarmogoyf is strictly better.
ReplyDeleteAnd so I can't say Ashcoat Bear is strictly better than Grizzly Bears because of the Petroglyphs scenario.
I see now that my thinking about strictly better is pretty sloppy. I do want to preserve the term for when Wizards has printed a complete "upgrade" to a card, but being forced to think through all the given scenarios before using it means it's probably better not to use the term.
It's not just because, "People play tormod's crypt." It's quite possible that Tarmogoyf is strictly better, if it truly increases your win% against every viable matchup in said format, but proving such a thing is crazy. Somethings don't require such testing, like the stoic rebuttal v cancel example, and are easy to slam with the title of strictly better.
ReplyDeleteI always defer to just saying, "better" in examples like your Tarmogoyf example, because I dont have the actual data to indicate if there's maybe Graveyardhate.dek that's actually viable in the format, which would make that untrue. I will say, that you are /probably/ right, that there is no viable matchup where Bears>tarmogoyf, but if you're not sure, or if you want to avoid arguments like the ones we had today, we should either come up with a new term, or you can even say, "much much much much better", or even "much better in most matchups" etc.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteThe Petroglyphs case isn't really applicable since I don't think that card has ever been played at a Constructed tournament ever, making it more or less an irrelevant part of the format. Tarmogoyf isn't the same though. In the Quarterfinals of PT Amsterdam, Tom Ma probably would have been better off with Runeclaw Bears in his deck instead of his Tarmogoyfs. Paul Rietzl's gy hate sideboard plan made Tarmogoyf's variable P/T an actual drawback.
The fact that someone might run Hive Mind against your Zoo deck composed solely of 3 toughness creatures doesn't stop Lightning Bolt from being strictly better than Shock.
I'd at least like to set the record straight that I'm not saying that nothing valuable can be said outside a vacuum. There is certainly plenty of valid strategic discussion to be had about comparing two cards given particular metagames. What I am saying is that as a definition, "strictly better" only means anything useful in a vacuum. Saying something is strictly better just due to metagame concerns is definitely a fuzzy definition. I fail to see the difference between Chalice of the Void and Meddling Mage in saying that one of them is allowed to matter for being strictly better and the other is not. The difference is that one is a pinpoint answer and the other is a more general one, but unless the actual rules of Magic said that you couldn't play a particular card, I wouldn't say that Chalice of the Void's existence and ubiquity would make a particular card "strictly better" compared to another.
ReplyDeleteI understand that you are conisidering strategies, which is completely reasonable in my mind. However, when it comes to comparing a card to another card, it seems to me that we are talking about entirely different things. While it could definitely be true that a card is strictly better than another card against a strategy or field of strategies, that's saying something different than saying that a card is strictly better than another card in terms of game design.
When you're saying it, you're talking on the micro-scale. That is, about a particular strategy or format and how a card compares to another there. When I'm talking about it, I'm talking on the macro-scale - the game as a whole, disregarding individual situations. Both have merit and uses, but are essentially different. When I say that your usage is useless, to me and the scope that I'm discussing, it is.
To me, your usage is meaningless because allowing any one exemption means allowing any number of hypothetical exemptions, even for cards that don't exist. In that situation, thinking about cards in a vacuum is the only way to compare them at all without opening what is practically an infinite number of possibilities. Whereas to you, my usage is pointless because it doesn't deal with situations that are practically guaranteed to matter.
As much as I hate the old saw "agree to disagree," that's basically all that's left to us. There's no good way to have this discussion if one of us is talking game design and the other is talking practical application.
Apologies if this came out disjointed; I may have completely derailed my train of thought somewhere in the middle of this.
Chris Y.
-@setzerg
"Thomas Quinlan @hobbesq:
ReplyDelete@mtgaaron but that goes back to me thinking in a statistical probability, in a situation with incomplete info which card i want more often"
Outside of a vacuum strictly better would be the card I would choose more often a statistically significant amount of the time with a ton of unknown information (what deck my opponent is playing).
Inside a vacuum it's easier to talk about cards as strictly better than another similar card. From a game theory (and poker theory similar to Sklansky's) perspective magic is a game of incomplete information (unlike say chess) so there are choices to make between Card A and Card B and that depends on what you think will give you the best chance given the partial information (what decks you are more likely to face).
I definitely agree with the theory used here, but see how people use it colloquially much different and how that is just going to lead to arguments.
@setzerg Wow, its amazing how much farther people get outside of the twitter 140 character limit. I certainly agree, that there is some very useful information about comparing cards in a vacuum, especially, with respect to game design. In my opinion, its simply unfortunate that the phrase chosen for that is the same as the academic phrase that means something slightly different (but in many cases yielding the same result). It's the source of confusion and ambiguity, when the same phrase can be interpreted multiple ways.
ReplyDeleteSaying that I'm looking at it on a micro-scale, I don't agree with, though. In any game-strategy analysis, the game is precisely defined and known to all players. Essentially, the format is known, and rules are set, before strategies are determined as optimal or even strictly dominant.
The reason you don't have to make loop holes arguments for every possible card of every possible situation (by the rules of academic game theory) is because game theory assumes your players won't take strictly worse strategies. In each format, you could start broad, saying there are 4 possible strategies, Aggro, Mid-range, Control, and Combo, and those can be divided out to every possible deck that could be constructed, and certain Aggro decks out perform other aggro decks to such a degree, that playing any that aren't of the best two (or 3 or 1 etc), is a strictly worse choice. By this process, you can narrow down the field of potential strategies you could choose, as well as potential strategies your opponent could choose. This would construct the decision alternatives for both players. A card is a strictly better decision for you if running it over another improve my chances of winning against All other viable strategies, or at the least, not make it any worse. This is why I've chosen the Counterbalance example, when selecting cards for play in that format, the CMC is a important aspect to consider, and isn't just a cut and dry rule of Less is better. While in most formats, and most cases it is, I simply wanted to illustrate that such considerations DO need to be made, and a vacuum is inherently not what the academic phrase was meant to handle.
Ultimately, the difference comes from what you and I perceive as "better". And this is a point that I can concede. I, as a player, want to find about how the card affects my ability to win the game. I understand, but hadn't considered, that game designers must also have a metric to compare cards to one another. While I yield the point that it may not be "incorrect" as I initially stated, I think when used by magic /players/ in context of what to play, the textbook definition I use, is more appropriate. While it may not be entirely useful in all cases, I don't think its necessary to warp the existing term, to fit what people want to use as a "shortcut", when it clearly causes much confusion.
I really appreciate the comment.
@hobbes
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, but what you are defining, if I'm reading it correctly, is how to obtain an "optimal strategy". Just because a strategy is optimal (meaning it provides the best statistical average output) doesn't mean its strictly better than its alternatives. It's a bit picky to go that thin on the definition, but the reason I'm so anal about definitions, is my job is to tutor these topics. I have to be careful my students don't misuse key-phrases on quizzes and tests. I think this is why my brain is wired to key in on specific phrasings and make sure the real definition isn't just over simplified, even if the 'spirit' of the definition is upheld. Game theory is one where the assumptions and rules applied to the analysis can't be taken lightly. I'm sure that's something you run into plenty with statistical analysis.